Theological, Historical, and Pastoral Reflections
Tom, I find it funny that I'm the first to comment on Dr. Akin's remarks. It has been obvious that I have been very vocal about Dr. Akin's silence on some things and Dr. Mohler as well. So, let me say " Thank You Dr. Akin" for telling the truth ! This is what I wanted him to do for sometime publicly about Calvinism. I have never said he has to support Calvinism but at least call some out publicly to be quite if they don't understand what they are talking about. Dr. Akin is highly respected in the SBC and I appreciate him telling the truth. This is a great statement from an SBC seminary president. I wish more Four Point Calvinist such as Dr. Merritt and Dr. Akin will at least speak out to those that lean toward Methodist theology such as Dr. Vines and Dr. Hunt. If one listens to Dr. Vines and Hunt they will see that these men only embrace Perseverance of the Saints and I believe they may not truly understand that as well( That's a whole different issue). Dr. Merritt and Akin are good men and that they need to speak up like Dr. Akin has just done. The only negative that I see in Merritt is that he cheers for the Georgia Bulldogs and they did lay the " Smack" down on my Auburn Tigers. Auburn is still the better team! I just was informed yesterday that FBC Woodstock( Dr. Hunts church) gave away $300 in cash to a kid at a youth event on Sunday night for winning a contest at church. The giveaway of cars,money , and beach vacations is becoming a routine thing at FBC Woodstock. I wonder if some Four Point Calvinst would speak out about this as well. Does a mans view of Salvation drive him to have to do things like this?????
This is very interesting. Where can I get a copy of that CD?
Well, glory to God but your own article on the Pastor/Theologianis an even greater blessing!Persevere!
Hey Tom, sorry I missed you at the FL Baptist Convention- I was looking for you, but apparently we were never in proximity at McGregor. I did have a great talk with Barry P. from Naples for a while Tuesday.
I spoke too soon. Glad I could run into you there. What a message from brother Voddie.
Brian:It was great to see you. And, yes, Voddie preached two powerful sermons...though I found the comments made immediately after his message tonight to be offensive and tragic. Watch for a post on that in the near future.
I was wondering if you caught those comments. It was irresponsible when Voddie had totally dismantled that argument Biblically.
Hey Brian H I presume. How is Florida.Was Voddie's talk like the ones he gave up here? Was the reaction along the same lines?He really makes us (ministry and denominational people look like government beaurocrats. And he is right.
Hi Tom,It was nice to meet you in Ft. Myers. I am part of the group that set up the program for the convention. Dr. Sullivan's remarks were all set long before the convention, so his comments - which I agree with - were not the result of the message.I had never heard Voddie before, but had heard about him. Everything I had heard before was very positive. That was why we invited him, but he was even better than I was told. What he said about how wrong our process for calling a pastor was when we make certain he didn't drink, but never asking about his family rang a bell that needs to be sounded.
Greg,Yep, it's me. Things are great down here. This was only the first occasion for me to hear Voddie speak live, I think. It won't be the last time! Yes, he nailed us.
Tom Bryant,I think all of us would recognize the comments were pre-planned; my problem is that Voddie used Biblical exegesis to make his argument, and Dr. Sullivan is using mere pragmatism. The fact that Dr. Sullivan referred to Voddie's message almost seemed defiant of a sound, Biblical exegetical argument. And that's why I feel it was irresponsible, since our arguments must be exegetical.This whole thing has me considering making a resolution at the SBC 2007 to ban golf among SBC trustees along the same lines.
Brian,Let me approach this a different way.If I came to preach at your church, I would understand that I am a guest. I would not preach about or use an illustration that would be against what you and your church believe. It would simply be a matter of being respectful of differences among brothers. I felt the same way about Dr. McKissic's message. I know that marks me, but for me, it's a matter of being a respectful guest.In terms of setting a standard for those who will serve as trustees, I have higher standards for my leaders than I do for people who attend. I imagine you do also. Not all of those standards are set in Scripture but are just the standards we have. If you want to be a teacher or a deacon, you have to live up to them. If you don't, we are not saying that you are immature believer, but we still stick to our standards for leadership. It's just that the standards for leadership get more strict with more responsibility as leaders.But I don't want to lose the point that Voddie was making. And he was absoutely right on point. We expect pastors to be able to teach and we hear them preach to make certain. But the same biblical standard applies to how they/we treat their wife and children and we never check up on that. If you listen to his message, that was really the poiint he was making rather than "to drink or not to drink, that is the question" :)But BTOP, I hope it is a trend that we quit picking on brothers in Christ.
Tom B,Thanks for the gracious reply. As you would acknowledge, Voddie surely did not make those comments with any knowledge of what Dr. Sullivan was planning to say. So I would not say he overstepped his place as a guest. Again, I don't care if he is a guest or not, if he is using Scripture responsibly, let the correcting and/or rebuking flow freely as far as I am concerned. You are right, it was not Voddie's main point- it simply came up in his text and he was able to use it to illustrate his main point very effectively. I will agree with your argument about leadership having higher standards to some extent. However, my disagreement is with an attitude among some (most?) of the vocals that "complete abstinence is the only credible Biblical position," which is implied by Dr. Sullivan saying, "I can't believe we wasted 30 minutes of God's time discussing this at the convention." (Would Luther have called his time at the Diet of Worms a waste of God's time?) If a position we hold is true, should we not boldly and gladly take the time to defend it, rather than making personal attacks by calling it "a waste of God's time"? Brother, you do not seem to have that exclusive attitude about that, and I commend you for it. What I and others are sick of is seeing men who hold to the infallible Word slandered by those who would call themselves brothers as men who are defending the use of alcohol or are careless about the testimony of the church. I know that those accusations in 99% of these cases are extremely far removed from the truth.
My goal is not to pick on Dr. Sullivan, and I am sorry you perceive it as such. My goal and hope is that his ministry would reflect as much of God's glory, truth, and grace as possible as a leader among Florida Baptists. And my hope would be, as he said himself last week, that he would "never change the subject" from the Word of God. Perhaps the most effective thing for me to do is to write him personally, which I will pray about doing.
My comment was not aimed at you "picking" on Dr. Sullivan, it was aimed mostly at my side of this discussion. We've run out of "enemies" in our convention, so we start looking at each other.
Chad Ivester has put up more excerpts from Akin's message. They are very encouraging.
Scott - It definitely sounds like FBC Woodstock at a minimum has gone full-blown seeker sensative. I have never sat under Dr. Hunt's preaching but Dr. Vines was my pastor for 20 years and I can safely say that his theology is quite distinct from Methodist, especially UMC. In can be more accurately described as "quasi-Arminian fundamentalist".I guess my own theology is described as "reformed/Calvinist evangelical". I say with great fondness that Dr. Vines played a huge part in the "evangelical" portion. In fact, we share the same life verse: Psalms 126:6
kingofbleh, First, do you know Pastor Kenny St. John who was the Youth Pastor at FBC Jax for many years? He is a dear friend of mine that showed me over and over the doctrines of grace in Scripture and was very patient with me. We served on staff together at FBC Snellville with Dr. Merritt for a couple of years. That is where I met him. He serves at Riverbend Community Church in Ormond Beach Fla( SBC Calvinistic Church).Second, FBC Woodstock would never claim the label of " Seeker Sensitive" but some of the things they will do to draw a crowd is " Scary". Beach Vacations, Car giveaways, and money. I served on staff at FBCW and saw personally the giving away of cash at large youth crusade rally with Dr. Hunt and Evangelist Steve Hale. Vines and Hunt would only agree to one of the Five Points of Calvinism( Scripture).
Scott,I knew Bro. St. John very well. He was my youth pastor for several years before he left FBC Jax. It has been a long time (you are making me feel old!)He has a wonderful testimony and he truly had a heart for us young houligans! I am glad you had a chance to serve with him.I know that church's like FBCW, FBC Jax and my own would never call themselves seeker-sensative, but in a very pragmatic way they have adopted many of the practices from the Hybels/Warren school of church management, as evidenced by the events you cite.
Post a Comment