Theological, Historical, and Pastoral Reflections
"It's the most amazing thing anyone's every told me," Crist said.I'd say so. Maybe he has been getting his cues from Pat Robertson.
If he's wrong, do we have to stone him to death?
Timmy is right. Pat Robertson said concerning the 2004 Presidential election, "I think George Bush is going to win in a walk, . . . I really believe I'm hearing from the Lord it's going to be like a blowout election in 2004. It's shaping up that way."The question is: how does it affect your faith if you're wrong?
Does not a certain Southern Baptist reverend think heknows who should be the nextelected president of the SBC?Being the powerful person he is, will not the voting next month in North Carolina be little more than a mere formality?Just asking.....
I'm with Marty. If this guy doesn't win the election the Rev. Dozier has said 'thus saith the Lord' when in fact, God did not speak. The consequences for that are clear.
I'm more concerned about what I'm going to do if he is elected. I mean, if we are to stone him if he is wrong, what do we do if he's right?
The Divine placing mortals into eartly power is not a new theme. We might canvas Annas, Caiaphas, and to a good extent, Pilate, to see if they wouldn't agree wholeheartedly. I suspect they would.
Sojourner-I guess if he is elected, we can see if the Right Rev can leg press 2,000 pounds.
I might get in trouble for saying this, but I don't see this any different than the following two quotes:1) [concerning Ronnie Floyd] Dr. Floyd called me last Wednesday and informed me that he will humbly accept this nomination due to God speaking to him dramatically through Acts 16:6-10. He never sought it one moment, but was drafted supernaturally...2) [concerning Frank Page] Asked his reasons for entering the race, Page said, “Obviously, number one, is, I have a peace from the Lord about it, that I have been seeking and did not have until this morning, that it was OK [to be a nominee].”Whether God spoke through a dream or whether He spoke through a subjective feeling, all three of these men somehow believe that they are divinely appointed. SDG
The fact that this guy's name is Crist, which makes one do a double-take because it looks like Christ for some reason made me laugh. If the guy's name was spelled "C-h-r-i-s-t" it would almost read like satire. Actually, it is anyway.
MartyDuren,That, my friend, was hysterical. Just when I thought things couldn't get any more stupid, you go and show this gem.:)
Nathan, I agree that it is the same subjectivity at play. Although, to be fair, neither Floyd nor Page said God would give them the Presidency, only that God gave them some sort of feeling as to whether they should run. So we don't get to stone either one of them (joke).My favorite thing to do when people say "God spoke to me telling me to go to such and so country to do missions" is to reply, "God did tell us to go make disciples of all nations, and that He'd be with us even unto the end of the age..."Oh, and I honestly read "Christ" at first instead of "Crist" when I read this: "The Rev. O'Neal Dozier said that before the dream he did not know Crist"
Some thoughts:1. It must be tough running against the man God has said will win.2. It must be tough voting against the man God said will win.3. Word-of-mouth endorsements from God may be the next campaigning craze used by all political parties.
Why would a Pastor say such a thing? Biblically speaking God places all rulers in their positions of authority (Romans 13). Back during the Clinton days I heard a Pastor in our association say that America would be cursed because they voted against God's will and elected Bill Clinton. I was about stoned to death for pointing out Romans 13 to the man. Far too many Christians use the mantra of God's will simply to justify their own agendas.
ALL YOU GUYS SHOULD MAKE IT A POINT TO HEAR THE MAD DOG (OOPS!) THE PIT BULL OF JERRY FALWELL'S SEMINARY "SCREAM AND SHOUT, SCREAM AND SHOUT" WHY HE FEELS THAT HE IS PREDESTINED NOT TO BE A CALVINIST. Check your local TV schedule for the exact time this hour of false doctrine will be aired in your locality this weekend - Saturday or Sunday.Jerry Falwell has promised all listeners/viewers a FREE recording of "this outstanding, important and very timely message by one of the greatest preachers in America."His words - not mine!!!!!!Jerry's words - not mine!!!!
I just don't get why this guy or Pat Robertson or anyone else thinks that God would decide to tell them about how an election would turn out. Incidentally, Pat Robertson is now getting weather forecasts from God, too. I wonder if God told him who would win American Idol...
He says God spoke to him? I hope he won't mind if I don't necessarily agree with him until God also tells me the same thing.
Obviously heaven is a red state.Don't tell Senator Macarthy if he's there.
This all makes me very uncomfortable.I am immediately suspicious when someone publicizes that God told them who would be elected to some political office.It's not that I don't think God cares about these things, or that he might even tell someone about it. But the way in which they go about "proclaiming" makes me think they haven't been hearing from God at all, rather their own imagination.And why would God need to tell that particular person that particular piece of news? Can't that guy just wait for the outcome of the election? If he did that, then he would know which one God had appointed...Some people are so careless invoking God's name that it makes you wonder if they know him at all.
"Let the prophet who has a dream tell the dream, but let the one who has My Word speak My Word faithfully." Jeremiah 23:28
Here is Jeremiah 23:25-32 (WEB translation) just so we can see the context. 25 I have heard what the prophets have said, who prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed. 26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets who prophesy lies, even the prophets of the deceit of their own heart? 27 who think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbor, as their fathers forgot my name for Baal. 28 The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; and he who has my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the straw to the wheat? says Yahweh. 29 Isn’t my word like fire? says Yahweh; and like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces? 30 Therefore, behold, I am against the prophets, says Yahweh, who steal my words everyone from his neighbor. 31 Behold, I am against the prophets, says Yahweh, who use their tongues, and say, He says. 32 Behold, I am against those who prophesy lying dreams, says Yahweh, and do tell them, and cause my people to err by their lies, and by their vain boasting: yet I didn’t send them, nor commanded them; neither do they profit this people at all, says YahwehHmmmm...
Amen!I am still trying to learn how to use the e-blog!
Just to make it sharper, the text in v. 28 actually says:"The prophet who has a dream recounts a dream, BUT the one who has my word genuinely speaks my word..."A good reason to stick to the word (in Jeremiah's case to the Deuteronomic warnings) and not rely on dreams. I guess in this case, it won't lead to the utter destruction of the nation though :)
OK. I was using the WEB version, which is based on the 1901 ASV. What translation are you using?Jeremiah 23:28NIV28 "Let the prophet who has a dream tell his dream, but let the one who has my word speak it faithfully. For what has straw to do with grain?" declares the LORD.NASB28 "The prophet who has a dream may relate his dream, but let him who has My word speak My word in truth. What does straw have in common with grain?" declares the LORD.KJV28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the LORD.ESV28 Let the prophet who has a dream tell the dream, but let him who has my word speak my word faithfully. What has straw in common with wheat? declares the LORD.NKJV28 “The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?” says the LORD.ASV28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the straw to the wheat? saith Jehovah.HCSB28 "The prophet who has [only] a dream should recount the dream, but the one who has My word should speak My word truthfully, for what is straw [compared] to grain?"—the LORD's declaration.So there!Whatever translation you're using, toss it and use one my officially approved ones above. :-)I love BibleGateway.com.
Actually I was using the Hebrew. :)The waw is disjunctive, therefore, the "but." And I took these as imperfects, not jussives because of the context (i.e., comparing straw with wheat, which forms a pattern: a. dreams b. My words a'. straw b'. wheat). So with the waw disjunctive and the contrast between straw and wheat in the pattern, I thought it more consistent to take the forms as imperfects, describing what both the dreamers and the proclaimers of God's Word do, rather than a command for them to do it (the imperfect form and jussive form are identical, so it's a call for the translations, but I think most of them miss the context AND unfortunately they often follow one another more than they should).Just goes to show that not all official translations are...well..."official." I've never actually tried BibleGateway. Does that have all translations on it? Thanks, byroniac, I like these fun light posts in contrast to the Caner ones. :)
bristopoly:Actually I was using the Hebrew. :)Ouch. OK. You blew me away. Not only do I not know Hebrew, I didn't see how my comment left me wide open for your very appropriate comeback. (Guess I should pick on someone my own size?)That aside, BibleGateway.com is very good, but they do not have every translation under the sun (they don't have the WEB translation that I used earlier... but I'm using GnomeSword on Linux, and this is the first time I've heard of WEB, but I used it because I like the ASV it was based on).Thank you for your clarification on the meaning of the Hebrew waw. What you said.By the way, my foot needs more salt.
I'm going to make a shameless plug here for the BibleToolbar extension for the Firefox browser. No, I didn't write it (I wish!). But it allows easy searching with BibleGateway.http://www.bibletoolbar.net/
Shick stated,3. Word-of-mouth endorsements from God may be the next campaigning craze used by all political parties.Can't happen. This would violate the separation of church and state craze.Sam Hughey
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